Thoughts on punishment and expectations in students of the arts – Share your 2 cents.

Posted on Jan 06 in colorguard & winterguard, get involved, parenting, personal growth, societyby PrintText Resizer Text Resizer

Each batch of kids I teach is different and in order to effectively “reach” each of them I try to adapt my approach, so I can best help them. I’ve never taught the same from one year to the next because no two batches of students are exactly the same.

The ultimate goal is to leave the students with some life lessons in addition to teaching them how to do colorguard/ winter guard. Things like:

  1. You can do whatever you set your mind to.
  2. Discipline and hard work always pay off.
  3. Actions speak louder than words.
  4. It is better to try and fail than to sit on the sidelines scared.
  5. Without risks and hard work you have no chances for huge success.
  6. Life is not about the end result it is about the journey.

Of course I also want to teach them about showing up on-time, fulfilling commitments, being a team player, planning ahead, time management, setting goals and so on…

Each kids responds differently to various approaches. Right now we are tackling discipline and focus in rehearsals.

I’ve been toying with the idea of physical punishment (aka push-ups and so on). It is something many marching bands incorporate in to their rehearsals as a means to refocus the kids and to give them incentive to do their best.

For me it is something that I’ve never really been able to fully appreciate. Sure I was forced to run a few laps in marching band when we all were having a really, really bad rehearsal… it only happen like twice the entire 4 years of high school though.

Now that I am teaching in a totally different place (culturally) I am having to revisit the idea of forced discipline & focus as opposed to simply expecting it. Does that make sense at all?

I guess what I mean is I am used to just being expected to act properly or leave as opposed to being expected to behave improperly and then to pay for the misbehavior.

You know on the one side there is no room for acting up but with the punishment there is the expectation of acting up followed by a punishment. It’s a glass half full or half empty sort of thing… with expectation of good behavior as opposed to expectation of bad behavior

What are your thoughts? Do you think there is any benefits to one over the other? How do you think they translate in to life lessons and shape young people?

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I'm studying to be a teacher and we are doing a unit on behaviour management at the moment. The main focus of the current unit is trying to understand the student individually and their background, why they are misbehaving and work with that rather than immediately punishing them.

Let me in on some tips and tricks, would gladly appreciate it. :-)

I've never really been a fan of physical punishment. If push ups are needed to strengthen muscles or laps are needed to help with endurance I prefer to include those in training portions of rehearsals. But for discipline I had a great deal of success with the first method you described - getting to know each group as individuals and working with them uniquely from year to year. Each year is definitely different.

I always had good success in finding ways to help the students develop a sense of "ownership" of their show and their team. I also worked hard to make sure that they knew that I believed in them as individuals and as a team and that my expectations were high but realistic. I pushed them and provided lots and lots of praise. Criticize in private - praise in public... and by criticize that usually just meant a private chat to let a student know I needed a little more from them that day - perhaps not to be so distracting if they are a bit chatty or distracted, or asking them if they were having a rough day because I noticed they seemed to be a bit down or unusually frustrated... sometimes even just to let them know that I know they're working hard and they need to not be too hard on themselves when they're learning new work.

Embarrassing them in front of the team either through words or actions would simply breed resentment which would make it more difficult for me to connect with that student and challenge them to go beyond what they think they can accomplish. If they are angry with me personally - they won't want to do what I ask them to do. I always found that they worked so much harder and achieved so much more when they knew we were "in this together" and that there was a mutual respect between staff and student - rather than an "us vs. them" type of feeling. That desire not to disappoint that the above commenter mentioned is born of a genuine respect - not fear of consequence....I think...

Anyway - just some thoughts.

In cheer (which is nothing like band) Ms. Jones was a bitch. But if she hadnt been that way we wouldn't have looked as good as we did. On time was late, if you weren't on time you ran laps or did other forms of a work out. If it wasn't perfect we started over and did it again and again it it was. She always said if we looked like shit in font of a crowd she would stop us and make us start again (she knew that would embarrass us to no end). I remember how amazing the band looked when Mr.Gomez tough it, and well, not it looks awful...

My advise is be tough. A routine has to be perfect every time, on time is late, respect, respect, respect. They need to respect that the person next to them want to look great, and if they arent going to give it 110% every time(rain or shine, cramps or cold or flu), they need to leave the team, its not fair for them to let their team mates down because they are lazy.

To me, when it comes to preformers, being strict is the best!
.-= Krystal McCarthy´s last blog ..Midnight Meat Train =-.

Oh my... what a can of worms this question could open.

I never saw, or heard of, physical punishment such as pushups for failure to perform in marching band when I was in high school. We're talking the 60s/70s here so that might be somewhat irrelevant...

except, I do not remember any such punishments when my daughters were in high school orchestra, ROTC, or in ballet or other classes in the 90s and 00s.

The punishment I do remember is of the "you are no longer allowed to perform with this group" type... ie, a sort of time out.. And, frankly that type of punishment could be (but does not have to be) more severe than performing an extra task such as pushups.

I have never been a fan of punishment for the sake of punishment... that, to me is cruel because it is rather meaningless. You can read more about my thoughts on actions taken for the sake of training rather than punishment here:

http://opiningonline.com/2009/09/26/punishment-or-...

The two women/teachers who had the most influence over my youngest daughter in her formative years were her ballet instructor and her orchestra leader. What they had in common was the ability to make their students strive to not disappoint them... and I was often in awe of the control these two had.

I wish I could tell you how they did it... I can't. All I can tell you is what I observed.

Parents were often involved as chaperones on various occasions and one I remember so vividly was when we parents were supposed to be supervising the orchestra students during some kind of regional competition. Frankly, we parents did not lose control of the students - we never had it.

But... when the orchestra director entered the room where some of the students were close to 'hanging from the chandeliers' had there been chandeliers, and where at least 10 parents were struggling to keep the peace in more ways than one... she simply stood quietly and very deliberately and slowly turned around, seemingly looking each student in the eye... not saying a word. Within less than a minute, the room was quiet and all the students were focused on her as if she were a magnet and she did not raise her voice at all when she told them she was disappointed in their behavior. And they hung their heads in shame and were silent.

It was one of the most amazing things I've ever witnessed.

My daughter was in her orchestra for six years and explained it to me this way: Ms. X trusted everyone to do their best and she found some responsibility to give to each of them. She made them feel responsible for each other and for the performance of the group... individually.

For example, the first chair violinists tutored the others, but the last chair violinist was in charge of copying the sheet music... everybody had a job to do. The job was not only for her, the director, or for the group, but also for the individual student.

This woman took her orchestra from Shreveport LA to San Francisco, to NY's Carnegie Hall, and to Paris. She told them, and then the world, that they were the best and then told them they must not make her a liar.

In essence, I think it was all about trust and expectations. IOW, she trusted them to live up to her expectations. And, in the long run, made them expect as much of themselves as she did.

You are so right about teaching life-long lessons... but I doubt that HS students will relate to those lessons stated so straight-forwardly. It's quite natural that they have their "nothing can hurt me/affect me" shields up, so it's often necessary to attack them obliquely, gaining their cooperation without their conscious knowledge. Else, you risk rebellion, the other natural state at this age.
.-= Donna B.´s last blog ..Blast From The Past =-.

My band director in high school was exactly what you describe and that has always been what I've strived for. You know not to scare them in to doing something but making them want to, on their own out of respect and because of your expectations of them. I remember one day my band director overheard me saying something, profanity I think, in the band room and he came up to me and told me how disappointed he was and how badly my actions represent me and that if I ever wanted to lead I needed to change my ways. He didn't yell or punish me but it impacted me so much because of the disappointment I caused.

These are middle school kids, even trickier than high school kids :-o

I really don't know what to say. I've never had to discipline anyone other than my children. All I can suggest is doing what feels right for you and your colorguard group. Is it just one or two kids that are acting out? If that's the case, it doesn't seem right to punish the whole group. But, I've never taught teens, so what do I know ;-) Good luck!
.-= Becky´s last blog ..I’ve Learned =-.

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